So Clinton wisely determined that this was something that Bentsen ultimately had to make the call on. But it was not a novel idea at all. You might call it something different. He was very disciplined and he went to bed at a certain time and he went home. I believe Perots presence helped Clinton because Perot kept saying how messed up the country was, so that actually helped the challenger rather than the incumbent. Well help you over here We didnt have to have the President do every one of those. In 1991 it was not organized. I want to be sure that there is a clear picture of that because he cant offer it himself. I should be very careful here. And the next point I want to make is, there was a fateful meeting, like most of these things, very well chronicled now, in Little Rock, up at the transition, the economic team, lasted many hours, very organized meeting in the sense that it had a set of presentations and then a broad discussion. I sat there for two or three hours and he took the measure of me and at the end he said, Would you like to do this? You may remember that Clinton put forward a white paper, if I can call it that, called Putting People First, which came out I believe at the end of 1991. I wasnt there because I was an expert in international finance. I guess that again leads to the question about the uncertainty and anxiety of a transition period, trying to figure out which person. When we had the opportunity to sit down, our own leadershipyou mentioned Leon Panetta, for example, having been chosenand formulate a fresh set of estimates based on all the then latest data, and obviously reaching out to a whole host of experts, it became clear that the deficit outlook was considerably worse than we thought. I want to come back to something that we had touched upon earlier, and that was this question about the administrations prioritizations, because you had suggested that there were some internal discussions, even at the time that NAFTA was taken on, as to what to do next. I dont believe Yeltsin attended the summit, but there was a lot of focus on Russia and what the G7 could do for Russia at that summit, so it was all kind of nice, uplifting stuff. Then Marjorie made her famous walk to the well, with the Republicans serenading her, Bye, Bye Marjorie, but if theres a more dramatic moment that one can have in government service, at least if youre working in some sort of economic capacity, I cant think of it. So it became effectively a simultaneous multilateral and bilateral summit because it became the setting for Clintons direct discussions with the Japanese Prime Minister. I was the senior Treasury person day-in, day-out on the major healthcare task force that Mrs. Clinton herself chaired. But my first point is that that entire team was out there promoting the Presidents economic package, both crisscrossing the country for that purpose, speaking, visiting Congressional districts and so forth, testifying on it of course, visiting one-on-one with members of Congress. That was a period during which [Boris] Yeltsin was just coming onto the stage. Remember, President Clintons first initiative, the stimulus plan, was defeated. Right now, again, were very far away from even the primaries still, let alone the general election, but right now the most active topic of discussion by the candidates by far is healthcare. Not surprising, given his state of origin. Most of what people today look back on as the early economic policy of the Clinton administration, in my view, was formulated post-election. More has been made of that than should be. So it quickly became apparent that some elements of the plan were going to face heavy sledding. I ended up doing that over the space of four, five, six weeks. I think John Kennedys famous line about Jefferson applies because he had nine simultaneous careers, and the Presidency was only one. Greenspan sat next to Mrs. Clinton. It was quite an experience, in retrospect. He could have been all rhetorical about it. Can you tell us about that? I think any President who is either fortunate enough or skillful enough to preside over a period of peace, at least as far as American soil and American forces are concerned, deserves credit either for his good luck or his skill. I mean, he seemed to be quite consistent about that, even though the rest of the field was, as I recall, quite a bit more protectionist. Did the portfolio members that you were approaching on NAFTA change from the work you were doing. There was a widespread sense that Japan was taking advantage of the relationshipin various ways. So he got people to serve for a long time, even if they were not intensely loyal to him. Or should be, not will be, but should be. We had a chat; we had a nice time. Could you tell us what your portfolio was within Treasury and what your primary responsibilities were? I was elected twice vice president of my class. The election took place on the first Tuesday of November. I mean, to give you an example, wed been in office I think several days, and the Sunday after the inauguration I was sitting at home in New York because my family hadnt moved yet. Lets divide concessions into two: actual changes in the bill, and then offering a Congressman something in another area to help make it easier for him to vote for this. Once he decided he was for it, he really got into it. So not long after arriving in the new offices, which were over there on Vermont Avenue, I remember that, I went over to the Treasury and met with Secretary [Nicholas] Brady and the Deputy Secretary, very nice manname escapes me at the momentand began to debrief the senior members of the department. First of all, Clintonand I consider this a very important historical achievement, well see how it lastsmay turn out to have transformed the Democratic party. And its not the right move to inform a Cabinet officer that his team is Mr. X, Miss Y, and Miss Z. [laughter]. We had a couple of others. Who was the coordinator, if any, in the first follow up? Weve talked about the general idea that the administration was going to accept pain by having deficit reduction in the early years, but theres still the question of how youre going to mete out the pain. No. WebRoger Altman: Formerly deputy Treasury secretary, Altman resigned Aug. 29, 1994 following revelations he tipped the White House off to criminal referrals made by Im an economist in the Brookings Institution in Washington. I think so, yes. We didnt have a crisis in the foreign exchange markets. I wasnt there because I was an expert in tax policy. Roger Altman is Founder and Senior Chairman of Evercore, the most active independent investment bank in the world today. Does that mean that the first initiative of the new President, should he, she, be a Democrat be healthcare? I divided my time between the transition office and the Treasury. I went and visited the injured agents in the hospital. I remember that day. I think its wrong from a policy point of view. I was often, or at least periodically, talking to members of the administration but not to the President. I think the Japanese have ultimately realized its in their own interests to make a lot of these changes. Youre an exception to this. Id become a pretty active Democrat in New York, particularly active by standards of Wall Street, which still had relatively few visible Democrats in its midst. His view was, I want to pick good people and let them do their jobs. I mean, I just thought he was such a hero. Tulip Brenner (Carol Burnett) tells off her sister-in-law (Peggy Ann Garner) in Robert Altman's "A Wedding." Talking out of turn you mean? But was it a battle? But the presumption was that the head of the agency of course did know that. President Clinton gave you the opportunity to serve your country, its a privilege to serve your country. I was an Assistant Secretary, I had a few meetings with President Carter but not that many, so I wasnt familiar, But it was not the way you would organize, and one wonders, Mack McLarty was the Chief of Staff at the time and came out of a business. Oh yes, sure. I respected him, but I never identified with him and I didnt see him being a successful Democratic nominee. It was very effective because it was a group of roughly 20-25 people, working literally 19-20 hours a day with only one mission, and that mission was to get this bill passed. Did that debate begin as early as August? The relationship between Clinton and Bentsen was quite unusual. I came to respect Dole a lot through Bentsen. It was an astounding speech. No, he was working the Hill like everyone else, but he was important. Carter, whos a wonderful man, God knows, however is very rigid. I did the best I could. We sat there, the two of us, watching it on television, mostly in silence. No. The next thing is a free-trade agreement, which I think the President could have dodged, he didnt have to go all out on that. For example, Putting People First was reissued, I believe in June of 92. Mr. Altman began his investment banking career at It really wasnt that way. While most of this was extreme and unjustified, President Clinton played a role in it himself. They were using very powerful weaponsI think .20 caliber weapons. Most of the budget directors thus far, Alice Rivlin, Leon Panetta, Jack Lewwe spent a day with Larry Summers, a number of the political people as well, speechwriters and so forth. From the very beginning I was spending a lot of my time on the Presidents economic program. Each day hed give a speech and mark off a day, counting down the days to the expiration of the statute of limitations and saying these people at the RTC damn well better be sure that justice is served, the Clintons arent off the hook. How difficult was it to raise money in the environment, Cuomo aside, just for somebody who had been a Governor of Arkansas in a campaign season when theres. Were they talking broad strategy, were they keeping whip counts? Lets step back and just recall who the members of the senior economic team were because there was an entire team of people doing this. Clinton gave his State of the Union address, the 28th of January, eight days after being inaugurated. Ive never either been attracted to that approach nor felt that it was an effective one. I mean, the reasons why Japan has had such difficulty in terms of its domestic economy are not reasons that an agreement with the United States is going to importantly affect, no more than our signing a trade agreement with Japan that committed us to try to do more at home to pump up our economy would be a big element in whether we did or didnt ultimately see economic growth here. So it was a combination of an organized role. Thats a good point, but thats because there were some people whod been around the track. So I had that meeting with Clinton. Andrew Garfield presented the Robert Altman Award at the 2022 Film Independent Spirit Awards to his old friend, Fran Kranz, for his film Mass. But as to whether it was an innovation, I doubt it. Secretary Bentsen took a lot of heat not long after being sworn in saying hed like to see a stronger yen, and that touched off a lot of controversy. So Im sitting there in his hospital room and hes got every imaginable tube coming out. I mean, its amusing in a certain sense, but of the hundred members of the Senate he probably talked on any kind of regular basis to about ten. That wasnt a very long meeting. In addition, Mr. Altman is a director of New Visions for Public Schools and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Yes, because obviously I was seen as somebody who had business credentials to some degree, conservative credentials, by Democratic standards at least. I direct the Presidential Oral History Program at the Miller Center. Even at the end of 91 it was small and relatively unformed. I mean, Republicans are opposing it because its tax and spend, the President is upset about it because its Wall Street economics. We just discussed one of them, which is the up cycle in partisanship, as I call it. Everyone was thinking about one thing and not expressing it. We came up with a Btu [British thermal unit] tax. I think of people like [Harold] Carswell and [Clement] Haynsworth that Nixon appointed and who didnt make it, it was mostly because they were seen as inferior candidates. Yes. Casey resigned and it was vacant. Ive been struck on several occasions in response to questions, youve referred to historical patterns and trends. I was struck from the beginning that Clinton was blessed with a very weak field, which, for example, is not the case today. We believed our model would attract the most talented senior finance professionals to our firm. Then maybe half of them we discussed about this person, that person. So he performed a similar role. With the exception of his Vice Presidential candidacy, he never lost another election. Here we are in June 2003 and the election as we all know is November 04, so its 16 months or so Then, in 1995, he formed Evercore. In other words a handful of conservative Democrats whose votes we had to have because we had no Republican votes. That approach hasnt been able to capture a majority of the American public for 40 years and I dont think its going to capture the majority of the American public for another 40 years. The phone rang and I was told by the Under Secretary for Enforcement that there had been a raid by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms on a complex in Waco, Texas, which had gone terribly wrong. But I dont think Ive ever witnessed, I can only call it a hate campaign, or feeling of hate I guesswhether its a campaign or not I dont knowbut this intense animosity to Bill Clinton and to Hillary Clinton. Clinton had his own style of charm and Bush has a little bit different style, but not very different. In other words, Clinton believed that he could charm anyone if he wanted to and Bush believes the same thing. I would say presided over, Id have to check the statistics, but probably the greatest period of economic prosperity in the entire century, or ushered in the greatest period of prosperity in the entire century. I want to ask you a general question since youve raised the Carter precedent again here.And that is, we get the perception in talking with some people that there was a conscious effort on the part of senior-most advisors to President Clinton not to reach out and rely on a lot of people that had Carter-era experience in the Presidency. Were you consulting with the President occasionally after you left Washington and came back to New York? There have been a lot of great American Presidents. Were now in the pre-election period. So he remained alive and, as we all know, recovered. Im not sure. Altman ran the White House war room during last I would say it had to do with an overall perception that he was the most substantive and the best politician. Sure, Greenspan was in favor of deficit reduction, so when the administration came forward with an actual deficit reduction plan, which, as we all know, was a bit unexpected, Greenspan supported it, testified for it and so forth. Yes, I believe the charter of the RTC transcended whether it was a state chartered or federally chartered S and L. Well, the guarantees were not Federal if they were state chartered. So there was not any anxiety or uncertainty within the core group of people involved in economic policy making about how this might fit in or. Toward the end it was all about these four names or these six names and how do we get their votes. It wasnt a great agreement. If Whitewater occurred today or there was some like set of issues surrounding President Bush and his past, I dont think thered be a single hearing about it. You said earlier you were involved raising some money, but also providing some advice and guidance on economic policy. There had been some minor event that day and he was asked what he thought of the latest developments in Iran and he said, I dont talk about barbarians. At my sons school, on the floor where the history department is, each President gets a little tiny picture and about two lines. There was no committee per se but he had a few people who were involved at that point and doing something like looking at Putting People First and editing it, and then just these periodic conversations we would have on the fly. For a variety of reasons, I dont think he had the pure luxury of just saying, Lets do NAFTA a year from now. He told me what would happen to the Clinton stimulus bill the day it was put forward. It became obvious to me that it was just untenable to keep trying to shout into this hurricane. I think my point is slightly different. Does that resonate with you? Word comes up, you just say nothing. It just depended on the size of the concession. We made two or three trips to Japan and then there was the Tokyo Economic Summitthe G7 Summit in the fall of 93 which happened to be planned many years in advance for Tokyo. I first met Bill Clinton in college. Its early 94 and the process on the healthcare initiative begins. Eventually they did, but it wasnt because of this agreement, big macro forces had them do it. Yes, he did. So actually I didnt have any concerns. I mean, it was a larger package as it was originally conceived and then. I think that there wasagain, I dont follow this that closelybut there was a fast reaction in short-term rates when the Federal Reserve Board loosened, early on, in what appeared to be quid pro quoGreenspan offered some assurance to Congress that the Fed would be cognizant of the Federal. There were probably 25 major separate deals negotiated to win the passage. Lets take five minutes and well come back for the rest of the morning session. But there were some deputies, Harold Ickes came in maybe six months or soIm trying to remember when that first shakeup with the deputies was. Can you walk us through that? You couldnt do that. That was partly because Bentsen was a person who had never failed at anything. The White House decidedwell, there were certain people who were obviously going to be in it. Wasnt that a state-chartered institution? There was no surprise. Lets recast the question a bit. I just want to make one point. Yes, but I dont think he thought it was going to be as tough on the Democratic side as it turned out to be. Was Bernard Nussbaum involved in the financing in this early period? You know, Clintons Presidency coincided with a lot of big changes in the body politic at large. He didnt say so, but supposedly he never does. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. I should have said I was either going to or not going to, but anywaySo that meeting came and went and at least nobody at the Treasury thought much about it. Bentsen tended to say very little at those meetings except at the end, when Clinton would turn to Bentsen and say, What would you do, Lloyd? It wasnt difficult. None of the aspects of her role bothered me at all. I was politically active, though. And then, of course, the political people in the White House: George Stephanopoulos of course, and others in the White House. I mean, maybe Reagan was to some degree briefly an anomaly, although he never had the reputation of being an anomaly, and so I wondered if the President, as Commander-In-Chief, also responsible for foreign policy, viewed this particular policy in that light too. I recall taking maybe one or two trips with him outside New York, mostly just for my own enjoyment, to see what it was like. We had a good discussion and I went back to the airport and flew home. You can do all kinds of approaches to anything. You wouldnt choose to go before a grand jury instead of, say, going to Yankee Stadium to see the Yankees playAt that point I was already out of the administration and I had no real concerns. WebNot only are 10% of the U.S. House and Senate Jesuit-trained from Georgetown, but so are many of the world's political leaders, which should have you asking What are they really up to?" But at the end it was breathtaking. Do you have any recollections of seeing anything different in him as a candidate at that point for that position? I worked very closely with Bob Kerrey, with Senator [Max] Baucus, who had such a problem with the gas tax. I think that had to do with the actual signing of the treaty. Evercore uses cookies to give you the best experience on our website. No, the rest of those were really in the purview, in the ambit of Larry Summers. He told me what was going to happen to the Clinton healthcare bill the day it was announced, actually before it was announced. What Im interested in is your perception of when the views that crystallized with economic policies were adopted in the first months of the administration. So I wasnt sure what was going to happen, but there was no one in the field that was suddenly squashing everyone else including Clinton. This goes back to that question about the interim between the pain and the payoff. So it was just a very unusual evening. When you were suggesting Edmund Morris I was thinking. But there was the issue of the Clintons association with it and the fact that Madison Guaranty had made loans to the actual Whitewater Development Company, and the question of whether those loans had been made under pressure from the Clintons and in fact whether [James] McDougal, who ran it, had defrauded the depositors in cahoots with the Clintons. But I didnt have any knowledge of this stuff. Then there was the other dynamic, which istheir personalities could not have been more different. She wears her heart on her sleeve much more than he does. There could be a lot of backsliding on that, well have to see. Youre working on prospective personnel issues? But in any event, the cooperation in both cases was optimal. This is a transcript of the interview, which you may watch here. Im not sure he would have known me really at all. Before you get into that, can I ask you another question about the arrangements on the 1993 budget? But it was a mixture of considerable travel, considerable speaking, lots of radio and television shows, in some cases done locallyin other words, youre in St. Louis, youre doing them, or, alternatively from Washington where you go over to the White House and sit on a chair and do seven satellite feeds in a row, or five radio shows, or what have you. Altman Thats true, yes. A lot of people wanted to work on Capitol Hill or think tanks or with interest groups. I was just there to do the best job I could. Within a month, I remember vividly one day, I had seven radio shows. That ostracism certainly hasnt afflicted the Clinton alumni. Carter had his famous Pond House meetings, and I went to a couple of those. That was about the last time he didnt listen to Bentsen, but he should have. He observed to me right off the bat that this was going to be very complicated and no cakewalk, right off the bat. That was quite a bit later. Obviously Sam Rayburn. Could be. I suppose everyone has his own definition of intimate, but by any standard Im familiar with, I was not an intimate of Clintons. Can you tell us about that? You didnt need to be a management consultant to see they werent well organized. They werent really involved in the doing of the plan. Fifty Republicans had announced their opposition, 49 Democrats had announced their support, and Bob Kerrey was strolling around, going to the movies, which is what he was doing. So yes, the themes were in the State of the Union. The hearings ended around the fourth or fifth of August and it was now the seventeenth or something. I really think its just that basic. But thats what Congress guys wanted. I mean, I could imagine that in your tenure, the perception might have been quite the reverse, but I dont know. Mickey Kantor was in charge of the famous Little Rock Economic Summit. What did you mean when you said, I knew how not to do it? But Clinton did care quite a bit about it. Well, that was, in retrospect, the Bill Clinton Show, and he demonstratedit was, I think, very clever in retrospect. Anyway. There was no real reason for that, it was just fate, happenstance, just the case that not many of them did. There are some very famous stories about Bentsens war experience. It was the best political speech, with a couple of exceptions, Id ever heard, which prompted a wonderful comment from former President Bush, who then came to the microphone and said, Now I know why Im on the outside looking in. The economic plan was, to some degree, controversial from the beginning because of the tax increases and some feeling that the deficit reduction was unnecessary or could be counterproductive. It was a very simple letter that was done up for me and I sent it to everybody saying, Just so you know, the RTC has only these procedural options in matters like this, and we will be reaching a decision on which of them to do before the statute of limitations expires. I ran three times for student office while I was there. So they came in and interviewed him. It was really quite revealing of Clintons inexperience to do it that way, and, for that matter his style, a poor way to do it. Bentsen, of course, didnt know the House as well as he knew the Senate, so it wasnt unusual that he himself wouldnt know in the House. Gene Sperling was in it. He talked about a middle-class tax cut and, of course getting the economy moving. Maybe we ought to move to the actual setting up of these priorities and the choices made and that process, from post-election into the actual post-inauguration time. We had a macro economic task force. So there wasnt all that much time, maybe ten days, twelve days, between opening the office, showing up down there and then having the Treasury Secretary and the rest of the members of the economic team chosen. The hearings process really kind of kicks it off. Kerrey made a quite dramatic speech, rather excoriating Clinton, urged Clinton to get back on the high road and so forth and then cast the vote and Gore cast the tie-breaking vote and thats how it happened. So two points: one, I support what the President did and I think he deserves a lot of credit for it. The President relied on Bentsen and Altman to take on some of his Administrations toughest tasks. Maybe there was, I wasnt privy to that or exposed to that. I think if Edmund Morris were writing with that skill about the Clinton years, hed have a whole chapter on the vote on this plan. It was sort of all-encompassing. Not the first time he met with another head of state, but I think his first summit outside this country. I ran into Alice on the plane. The entire economic team flew on a chartered plane down to Little Rock. Youre in such a good position to give us a comparative portrait of transitions internally. Not particularly. Its improved a lot since then, now become of course one of the leading universities in the country, but it was not at that time, in fairness. Casey came to see Bentsen and essentially asked to be reappointed and Bentsen told him, No. Having watched very carefully what Bob Carswell, who served for three plus years of the four Carter years as Deputy Secretary, did in that role, and that was actually rather different than my role. 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